Given my job is very bound up in copyright law, and also, I work in a library, I cannot advocate downloading when there are libraries.
And yet, I believe in less stringent copyright laws, but by that I mean, this "life plus 70 years stuff" is utter nonsense, and I will probably have my literary executors release all my stuff within 10 years of my demise or earlier/later depending on what age I am/my children are when I die. I'm a huge fan of creative commons.
I almost gave downloading dead authors a pass, but at the same time, no.
I think that libraries and downloading are in direct opposition because many downloaders seem to be doing it because of their collector's gene. Having to return the books means they can't collect. Seems like the big downloaders have no intention of ever reading the stuff. They just want to have it.
Huh! I've never encountered that, and the idea of collecting something that's not physical seems deeply weird to me. But people are deeply weird, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised!
Given my job is very bound up in copyright law, and also, I work in a library, I cannot advocate downloading when there are libraries
Not that I'm all about downloading with obnoxious abandon or anything, but to play devil's advocate for a moment?
Yes, there are libraries, but they're not always accessible to people the way the internet is. Even in NYC, the branch of the Queens Library that's closest to me and that serves the Glendale area is probably the most pathetic library I've ever seen, and the next closest library is a rather convoluted bus ride away from me (because public transport in Queens sucks).
It's actually easier to go into Manhattan or Brooklyn than it is to try to find the next closest branch in Queens (which is also rather sad, because apparently nobody in Queens deserves a good library).
Also, I grew up in two small(ish) Southern town. The library I went to as a kid had two rooms of books, and three tables. And that was the public library. That was it. Not to mention that I'm not sure there *was* a bookstore in that town (it had like 8000 people in it). And yet that library in the 1990's is still better stocked than the one in the Glendale area, sadly.
If I lived in a place like that, rather than NYC (you can't swing a dead cat in this city without hitting a book) - I can't say that downloading books illegally wouldn't be a little more attractive to me.
Not advocating anything here, mind you, but libraries aren't perfect places with every book in history, and often people don't feel like they can go there, don't understand how to use it, or how to get a library to get a book for them (interlibrary loan and whatnot) if it isn't right there on the shelves in front of them.
I agree with you about the collector gene in your comment above. I think for some people, the downloading is about getting gobs and gobs of stuff.
But I do think there might be some folks who, for reasons of access and money, might download certain things they want and there is something different about that. It doesn't necessarily make it better or more right, but I think it's another category.
I'm always puzzled by the suggestion that getting one's books from the library is a lesser or inadequate thing. Libraries buy a helluva lot of books.
Actually, I sort of understand it. For one, there's the clear implication that if you're wealthy enough, you can just buy the books you want.
Second, I think that some people feel awkward about libraries, aren't sure how to use them, don't like them and thus feel more comfortable just buying the book or, perhaps, downloading it. Legally or illegally.
I personally have never felt the library is a lesser thing (I love libraries, and I think they're gorgeous places, even the ones that only have three books and no air conditioning), but I will confess that sometimes, I have enjoyed books and wished that I could keep them so I could re-read them at will.
Dude. The town you lived in after that was not much better.
The library where we grew up was totally in the ghetto. When I was about 14, I was there waiting for my mom to pick me up, and some guy thought I was a prostitute. "Are you walking freely?"
I feel so stupid. I'm reading this and thinking, "what? you can download books for free?" Had not considered that. The last book I got online was Calpernia Addams's Mark 947. It's an autobiography. She advertised it by saying, "Hey, y'all, things are a little tight this month so why doncha buy my book?" The pdf was $5.
Sometimes I think people might get the idea that just because someone wrote a book, that means they have crazy money. Not always the case so I think I'd rather just stay honest.
I wish audible.com would come down on their prices a wee bit.
The public library here in my town in Michigan is very odd; the most recent astronomy book on the shelf, for example, is in the 1990s, and that was a donated book. Maybe all the others were checked out, sure, but how strange is that?! and there were only about ten astronomy books altogether on the shelf. I can have books delivered, of course, so that's good.
On the tip-jar question, question one and four are pretty much the same :-)
Anyway, I'm already surprised at the variety of answers, it's an interesting poll.
Dude. The town you lived in after that was not much better.
No damn kidding. How sad was that place? I actually managed to read half their shelf of SF/F in, like, two months because that's HOW LITTLE they had. And I totally went through their entire collection of books about mythology. They had precisely twelve books on the subject, IIRC.
Yeah. If I were still living there and didn't have access to the bookbarn or a really super posh Barnes and Noble, I'd probably be downloading hardcore, especially since Davis-Kidd went belly up and now there's only the Books-A-Million and I hate that place. They're like the most Christianized non-Christian bookstore I've ever seen. God forbid you should go to Books a Million and be an atheist.
When I was about 14, I was there waiting for my mom to pick me up, and some guy thought I was a prostitute. "Are you walking freely?"
Oh, dude, the library was totally creepy. My parents used to drop me off there and forget when it closed (at noon on Saturdays) and I'd be stuck out there. Oh my god, it was scary.
Libraries aren't perfect places with every book in history, and often people don't feel like they can go there, don't understand how to use it, or how to get a library to get a book for them (interlibrary loan and whatnot) if it isn't right there on the shelves in front of them.
Of course. Librarians are working on this all the time--or should be. The graying of the profession is changing things big time. The Library 2.0 movement is about getting everyone up to a basic level of information literacy and then moving them past that into information proficiency.
I reckon that if you're smart enough to figure out how to download something and yet can't figure out to got a library or ask a librarian what the other options are, that's--just how it is.
And maybe, even if you try the library and find, yeah, the library is junk. Budgets don't support endless ILLing, either, even if you do stumble across that resource. But if someone is going to experience a moral quandary over illegal downloading, the library should cross one's mind.
I mean, this poll is about the moral argument, right? At what point do you decide to do something illegal?
There's a question in here somewhere too about... why can't a person just wait? Why does the gratification have to be instant? I know the answer, of course, but I don't think we should stop asking the question.
It's doubtless a combination of budget, book selector knowledge, and perceived "community interest." The librarians can't know there's a need for something if you don't ask for it. If the only patrons who ask for books/complain are gray-haired mystery readers, they're going to buy more books for that demographic, and think that your demographic doesn't use the library.
The thing about it is, that's a town with a population of 100K when you consider the surrounding county. They could do better, but nope, it's all chain restaurants and strip malls.
I feel so stupid. I'm reading this and thinking, "what? you can download books for free?" Had not considered that.
Oh, yeah. Bittorrent is chock full of the stuff. Not that I'm recommending it or anything - but yeah. Just letting you know. You can find all sorts of stuff there. I've downloaded things from there that were public domain books from Bittorrent, for which I feel no guilt at all.
Because I'm not bloody well not going to fork over money to some publishing company who slapped a pretty new cover on Paradise Lost or Oedipus, got some schmoe professor to write up his thoughts on yaoi in the introduction and priced it at 11.99 plus tax. Fuck that for two larks and a swallow. It's public domain and if someone has it in PDF format that I can keep for my own reference on my computer, all the better.
That's one thing. Certain books I want to keep either for reference or because I love them intensely, so the library is a less feasible thing.
Sometimes I think people might get the idea that just because someone wrote a book, that means they have crazy money. Not always the case so I think I'd rather just stay honest
There are a lot of wrongheaded ideas about how writing and publishing work, I think, in general. Not sure why, but I think it has something to do with TV and the general ignorance of the public on most things like that.
I wish audible.com would come down on their prices a wee bit.
Amen. If they weren't so damned expensive, I might actually buy stuff from them, but I like them. But alas, no. Things are tough all around and the belt must remain tight.
Yeah, one time I was waiting and this sort of strange guy tried to talk to me and he was kind of crazy looking. I started crying. He went away when I peed my pants because I'd been standing out there for twenty minutes, the library was locked up and I needed a bathroom so bad that I couldn't think straight.
In my defense, I was 12 and alone and didn't know how I'd get home if my parents didn't come get me.
And yet, still, I persisted in going there because there weren't books anywhere else and I don't think Davis Kidd opened until a couple of years later.
They could do better, but nope, it's all chain restaurants and strip malls.
Somehow, I feel this the crux of everything that's wrong with Jackson. Maybe this is the thing that we've been trying to articulate for years about Jackson being a sinkhole of DESPAIR.
I mean, this poll is about the moral argument, right? At what point do you decide to do something illegal?
Exactly. And that's sort of what I want to puzzle out. Because I don't think most people who download think of themselves as doing something that's bad, or "that bad", and I'm curious about that. Sure, downloading a book illegally isn't like, rape or murder or anything, but there is an element of right and wrong.
Of course. Librarians are working on this all the time--or should be. The graying of the profession is changing things big time. The Library 2.0 movement is about getting everyone up to a basic level of information literacy and then moving them past that into information proficiency.
That's a BIG task, and it shouldn't just be librarians doing it. I'm not sure what educators are doing in regards to this topic (a lot, I hope), but some of this should be covered in schools.
I know that the only reason that I know as much about how to navigate a library as I do is because I had a really, really dedicated elementary school librarian, Mrs. Wilcox (god rest her wonderful soul), who from the first grade to the fifth made damn sure we knew how to find anything and everything in that library, and didn't think that there was such a thing as being too young for a card catalog or the Dewey Decimal system.
We used to have "find a certain book/type of book" contest and games in the library during our time there. I was so totally good at it.
But I got lucky with her, you know? I never even knew who the librarians at my other schools were. And god only knows how many kids had schools that had no libraries or libraries they never went into.
If it makes you feel any better, given the chance, I'd actually prefer checking out books from authors/genres I like from the library than downloading, because that's just as good as sharing, but people get paid for it and those who can't afford books can have access.
Plus, it means that a book you love is there on the shelf, waiting to attract another reader. It spreads the love.
Also? I can make a dent in what the library purchases, you know? If they see that SF/F books (for example) are big hits, they'll order more.
I'd love to try to do that with the Glendale library, their entire non-fiction collection takes up exactly five shelves of the size that would fit easily in my house. Not that I blame the librarians. Queens isn't really channeling any funds into the place, and they can't even afford to pay a librarian to be there more than a few hours a weeks (which means on Tuesdays, Saturdays, Sundays, and sometimes Mondays the place is closed, or closes at 3).
And yep, that was exactly where all the insane homeless hung out because the mission was down there and the food bank.
When a Starbucks opened downtown a couple streets over just across from the courthouse, they used to come over and talk or beg all the time. Of course, encountering a mentally ill drug addict when you're in your 20s with a group of people is totally different from encountering one when you're all alone, 12, and totally need to pee.
That Starbucks is closed now. I guess the court crowd didn't go for them, and no one likes to go downtown at night there.
You know, it's funny. I never go to Davis Kidd here in Nashville. Maybe when Unemployment '09 ends, I should go.
And yeah, exactly, about Jackson. It gets larger, but it never grows.
On the tip-jar question, question one and four are pretty much the same :-)
Actually, no, but that's because my wording was wonky. I meant, in the first question, to ask if somehow a tip jar would prevent or persuade someone from downloading if they already are - maybe seeing that the author needs money would make them feel bad or something. IDK.
Anyway, I'm already surprised at the variety of answers, it's an interesting poll.
It's hard to ask, but I do see you're point :-). I'll ask the next time I go in, as I do love the library and can hope for the best. I guess the worst she can do is not order any.
Exactly true. And there may be something as simple as a form/box/website for requesting books where you don't have to interact with human beings in the future!
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no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 03:20 pm (UTC)I'm always puzzled by the suggestion that getting one's books from the library is a lesser or inadequate thing. Libraries buy a helluva lot of books.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 03:20 pm (UTC)And yet, I believe in less stringent copyright laws, but by that I mean, this "life plus 70 years stuff" is utter nonsense, and I will probably have my literary executors release all my stuff within 10 years of my demise or earlier/later depending on what age I am/my children are when I die. I'm a huge fan of creative commons.
I almost gave downloading dead authors a pass, but at the same time, no.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 03:22 pm (UTC)But I agree with you.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 03:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 03:39 pm (UTC)Not that I'm all about downloading with obnoxious abandon or anything, but to play devil's advocate for a moment?
Yes, there are libraries, but they're not always accessible to people the way the internet is. Even in NYC, the branch of the Queens Library that's closest to me and that serves the Glendale area is probably the most pathetic library I've ever seen, and the next closest library is a rather convoluted bus ride away from me (because public transport in Queens sucks).
It's actually easier to go into Manhattan or Brooklyn than it is to try to find the next closest branch in Queens (which is also rather sad, because apparently nobody in Queens deserves a good library).
Also, I grew up in two small(ish) Southern town. The library I went to as a kid had two rooms of books, and three tables. And that was the public library. That was it. Not to mention that I'm not sure there *was* a bookstore in that town (it had like 8000 people in it). And yet that library in the 1990's is still better stocked than the one in the Glendale area, sadly.
If I lived in a place like that, rather than NYC (you can't swing a dead cat in this city without hitting a book) - I can't say that downloading books illegally wouldn't be a little more attractive to me.
Not advocating anything here, mind you, but libraries aren't perfect places with every book in history, and often people don't feel like they can go there, don't understand how to use it, or how to get a library to get a book for them (interlibrary loan and whatnot) if it isn't right there on the shelves in front of them.
I agree with you about the collector gene in your comment above. I think for some people, the downloading is about getting gobs and gobs of stuff.
But I do think there might be some folks who, for reasons of access and money, might download certain things they want and there is something different about that. It doesn't necessarily make it better or more right, but I think it's another category.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 03:44 pm (UTC)Actually, I sort of understand it. For one, there's the clear implication that if you're wealthy enough, you can just buy the books you want.
Second, I think that some people feel awkward about libraries, aren't sure how to use them, don't like them and thus feel more comfortable just buying the book or, perhaps, downloading it. Legally or illegally.
I personally have never felt the library is a lesser thing (I love libraries, and I think they're gorgeous places, even the ones that only have three books and no air conditioning), but I will confess that sometimes, I have enjoyed books and wished that I could keep them so I could re-read them at will.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 03:58 pm (UTC)The library where we grew up was totally in the ghetto. When I was about 14, I was there waiting for my mom to pick me up, and some guy thought I was a prostitute. "Are you walking freely?"
Had a couple more books though.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 04:06 pm (UTC)Sometimes I think people might get the idea that just because someone wrote a book, that means they have crazy money. Not always the case so I think I'd rather just stay honest.
I wish audible.com would come down on their prices a wee bit.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 04:06 pm (UTC)On the tip-jar question, question one and four are pretty much the same :-)
Anyway, I'm already surprised at the variety of answers, it's an interesting poll.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 04:15 pm (UTC)No damn kidding. How sad was that place? I actually managed to read half their shelf of SF/F in, like, two months because that's HOW LITTLE they had. And I totally went through their entire collection of books about mythology. They had precisely twelve books on the subject, IIRC.
Yeah. If I were still living there and didn't have access to the bookbarn or a really super posh Barnes and Noble, I'd probably be downloading hardcore, especially since Davis-Kidd went belly up and now there's only the Books-A-Million and I hate that place. They're like the most Christianized non-Christian bookstore I've ever seen. God forbid you should go to Books a Million and be an atheist.
When I was about 14, I was there waiting for my mom to pick me up, and some guy thought I was a prostitute. "Are you walking freely?"
Oh, dude, the library was totally creepy. My parents used to drop me off there and forget when it closed (at noon on Saturdays) and I'd be stuck out there. Oh my god, it was scary.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 04:15 pm (UTC)Of course. Librarians are working on this all the time--or should be. The graying of the profession is changing things big time. The Library 2.0 movement is about getting everyone up to a basic level of information literacy and then moving them past that into information proficiency.
I reckon that if you're smart enough to figure out how to download something and yet can't figure out to got a library or ask a librarian what the other options are, that's--just how it is.
And maybe, even if you try the library and find, yeah, the library is junk. Budgets don't support endless ILLing, either, even if you do stumble across that resource. But if someone is going to experience a moral quandary over illegal downloading, the library should cross one's mind.
I mean, this poll is about the moral argument, right? At what point do you decide to do something illegal?
There's a question in here somewhere too about... why can't a person just wait? Why does the gratification have to be instant? I know the answer, of course, but I don't think we should stop asking the question.
astronomy books
Date: 2009-02-06 04:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 04:19 pm (UTC)The thing about it is, that's a town with a population of 100K when you consider the surrounding county. They could do better, but nope, it's all chain restaurants and strip malls.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 04:24 pm (UTC)Oh, yeah. Bittorrent is chock full of the stuff. Not that I'm recommending it or anything - but yeah. Just letting you know. You can find all sorts of stuff there. I've downloaded things from there that were public domain books from Bittorrent, for which I feel no guilt at all.
Because I'm not bloody well not going to fork over money to some publishing company who slapped a pretty new cover on Paradise Lost or Oedipus, got some schmoe professor to write up his thoughts on yaoi in the introduction and priced it at 11.99 plus tax. Fuck that for two larks and a swallow. It's public domain and if someone has it in PDF format that I can keep for my own reference on my computer, all the better.
That's one thing. Certain books I want to keep either for reference or because I love them intensely, so the library is a less feasible thing.
Sometimes I think people might get the idea that just because someone wrote a book, that means they have crazy money. Not always the case so I think I'd rather just stay honest
There are a lot of wrongheaded ideas about how writing and publishing work, I think, in general. Not sure why, but I think it has something to do with TV and the general ignorance of the public on most things like that.
I wish audible.com would come down on their prices a wee bit.
Amen. If they weren't so damned expensive, I might actually buy stuff from them, but I like them. But alas, no. Things are tough all around and the belt must remain tight.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 04:27 pm (UTC)Yeah, one time I was waiting and this sort of strange guy tried to talk to me and he was kind of crazy looking. I started crying. He went away when I peed my pants because I'd been standing out there for twenty minutes, the library was locked up and I needed a bathroom so bad that I couldn't think straight.
In my defense, I was 12 and alone and didn't know how I'd get home if my parents didn't come get me.
And yet, still, I persisted in going there because there weren't books anywhere else and I don't think Davis Kidd opened until a couple of years later.
They could do better, but nope, it's all chain restaurants and strip malls.
Somehow, I feel this the crux of everything that's wrong with Jackson. Maybe this is the thing that we've been trying to articulate for years about Jackson being a sinkhole of DESPAIR.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 04:30 pm (UTC)Exactly. And that's sort of what I want to puzzle out. Because I don't think most people who download think of themselves as doing something that's bad, or "that bad", and I'm curious about that. Sure, downloading a book illegally isn't like, rape or murder or anything, but there is an element of right and wrong.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 04:33 pm (UTC)LJ cut off my reply, sorry!
Date: 2009-02-06 04:36 pm (UTC)That's a BIG task, and it shouldn't just be librarians doing it. I'm not sure what educators are doing in regards to this topic (a lot, I hope), but some of this should be covered in schools.
I know that the only reason that I know as much about how to navigate a library as I do is because I had a really, really dedicated elementary school librarian, Mrs. Wilcox (god rest her wonderful soul), who from the first grade to the fifth made damn sure we knew how to find anything and everything in that library, and didn't think that there was such a thing as being too young for a card catalog or the Dewey Decimal system.
We used to have "find a certain book/type of book" contest and games in the library during our time there. I was so totally good at it.
But I got lucky with her, you know? I never even knew who the librarians at my other schools were. And god only knows how many kids had schools that had no libraries or libraries they never went into.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 04:41 pm (UTC)Plus, it means that a book you love is there on the shelf, waiting to attract another reader. It spreads the love.
Also? I can make a dent in what the library purchases, you know? If they see that SF/F books (for example) are big hits, they'll order more.
I'd love to try to do that with the Glendale library, their entire non-fiction collection takes up exactly five shelves of the size that would fit easily in my house. Not that I blame the librarians. Queens isn't really channeling any funds into the place, and they can't even afford to pay a librarian to be there more than a few hours a weeks (which means on Tuesdays, Saturdays, Sundays, and sometimes Mondays the place is closed, or closes at 3).
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 04:42 pm (UTC)And yep, that was exactly where all the insane homeless hung out because the mission was down there and the food bank.
When a Starbucks opened downtown a couple streets over just across from the courthouse, they used to come over and talk or beg all the time. Of course, encountering a mentally ill drug addict when you're in your 20s with a group of people is totally different from encountering one when you're all alone, 12, and totally need to pee.
That Starbucks is closed now. I guess the court crowd didn't go for them, and no one likes to go downtown at night there.
You know, it's funny. I never go to Davis Kidd here in Nashville. Maybe when Unemployment '09 ends, I should go.
And yeah, exactly, about Jackson. It gets larger, but it never grows.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 04:44 pm (UTC)Actually, no, but that's because my wording was wonky. I meant, in the first question, to ask if somehow a tip jar would prevent or persuade someone from downloading if they already are - maybe seeing that the author needs money would make them feel bad or something. IDK.
Anyway, I'm already surprised at the variety of answers, it's an interesting poll.
I'm getting a lot of fascinating responses!
Re: astronomy books
Date: 2009-02-06 05:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 06:12 pm (UTC)Re: astronomy books
Date: 2009-02-06 06:13 pm (UTC)